The next step? go DV or stick with encoded hardware capture

I have been doing some vhs to DVD capturing for about a year now. Learned tons from this place and others like it.

I now know that I may want to do things differently. I have been using an Adaptec AVC 2210 & MyDVD 6 deluxe for a bit and that is fair. But I am finding my self wanting to do more editing and more advanced DVD authoring and MyDVD doesnt' have very good quality during encoding /transcoding and authoring runs out of steam after the basic menuing. And I can't find any other tools that will capture from the AVC 2210 (anyone know of any?).

So I am thinking about my next capturing (almost all caps. I do are from VHS) move. I will think about the authoring later. Now I am trying to sort out IF:

1) Go for decent consumer/prosumer Analog to DV box and capture to DV and edit/author from there - this should be about the best quality and lots of DV editing options

OR

2) Yeah sure A to DV seems best (cap. quality) - but really, a capture card/box with a good hardware encoder (what makes one good, btw? No. of "bits"?) should be fine - they have tons of features, and often have a TV tunner. Maye get one of those and decent compressed video editor and encoder (prolly mpeg) and I'll be happy.


Without investing in both - what are some guidlines to follow on this sort of thing? What are some experiences? I am trying to keep the hardware/software investment to $200ish. I don't mind using multiple tools and like OSS & freeware when available but will pay for tools that work.

Some of those flashy hauppauge/ATI/other 'do everything' cards are very enticing - but I think part of my current frustration is re-encoding captured (and encoded) videos and the poor quality that can result. Going this way seems kinda like where I am now (albeit maybe with better software).

 

Well I don"t see why you Can not Capture in Sonic MyDVD and then Import the Captured Files into a Different Program for editing and DVD authoring....

Also since your Capture device is a Hardware Mpeg-2 encoder Card any time you want to do any editing you should use a Native Mpeg editor like "Womble Mpeg2VCR" so you do not loose Quality when editing...

Also maybe useing a DVD authoring Program that doesn"t re-encode your Files when authoring to DVD would be good like "MediaChance DVDLab Pro" which is Probably one of the Best DVD authoring Programs out there for advanced DVD authoring.....

You couldn"t afford to get a Good Analogue to Digital DV Converter and the Software to edit ,encode and author it to DVD as something like the "Canopus ADVC-110" would run you about $250 Pluss the editing Software which would Bring you Way past what your Budget is....

If you use the Correct editing and DVD authoring Software you should not have any problems with Looseing quality through re-encodeing your Captured Files because the files should be DVD compliant in the First Place and if you use a Native Mpeg editor then you will not Loose Quality from editing and if your DVD authoring Program doesn"t re-encode then you won"t loose any Quality.....

Also your Capture device is on Par with those others you Mentioned (Theater 550,Hauppague WinTV PVR,) as they are all Hardware Mpeg-2 encoders so the Quality should be Simular...Your Device actually sells for more than the 550/PVR 150 so if you wanted to switch you could sell yours and by one of the Others.....

good luck

 

Thanks for your input - and would love to hear more.

Couple of follow on questions or point

I guess most of my frustration stems from MyDVD - which is the only program that I have found that will capture from the AVC2210. There is little control over capture parameters and capturing is buried in the DVD author app.

Any other capture suggestions? It appears the AVC2210 is a WDM device - but I have had no luck with VirtualVCR or iuVCR. Suggestions?


I got more thoughts on A to DV too. Still collecting my toughts on that and will have more questions? But here is one for starters: ADS Pyro A/V Link can be had for as little as $150. How does this stand up to a canopus advc 55 or 110 (or 100)?

 

You need to use a WDM Mpeg Capture Program that is Meant to work with Hardware encoders....Virtual-VCR and IUVCR are only for Captureing to AVI and WMV/ASF and do not support Mpeg-2 at all...

Maybe "InterVideo WinDVR 3.0" will work with itas it has worked with every Capture card I have used ,it even works with my DV Camcorder...

Also you can Find your Captured Files from MyDVD if you go into the Programs Install Directory and there should be a Temp Folder with your Captured Mpeg Files in it OR there might be a Folder in "My Documents" created by the Program to store Temp Files...

There should also be settings in the Software that will allow you to assign were the Temp Folder or Captured Files will be Captured to which will let you assing were the Files will be so you can Find them easier.....

The ADS Pyro A/V Link doesn"t have the same Quality of Encoder Chip or Decoder and doesn"t Have Audio Lock and I have heard many poeple complaining about problems with the device...
Even the ADVC-55 which is Probably the Cheapest Canopus ADVC Unit has all of those Features and is a Far superior device and it is only about $50 more than the Pyro Unit....

There is actually someone On e-bay right now selling a "Canopus MpegPro EMR" for $200 which Costs retail close to $500 and it is Canopus"s Profesinal Line of Hardware Mpeg encoders and these Devices Produce amazeing Quality captures and they let you select the exact bitrate you are encodeing to so your Files come out the exact size you Predict and it also supports many different resolutions and had Hardware Noise Filtering and 3D Y/C separation which greatly increases Image quality...

Here"s the Link to the Specs on the Canopus Site:

http://www.canopus.com/products/MPEGProEMR/index.php

Here is a Link to the Auction:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/CANOPUS-MPEGPRO-...8753933786QQcategoryZ3761QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

With the Correct Mpeg editing Software Like "Womble Mpeg Video Wizard 2005" and a Good DVD authoring Program it would be all you need to make the Highest Qualty DVD"s and be able to do any type of editing you wanted without looseing quality....

I just thought you Might be Interested in this because I just Stumbled across it and i don"t have the Cash for it (If i did I would Probably Buy it cuz it is an awesome deal) so I figured you Might be Interested....

Well I"ll talk to you Later....Cheers

 

Thanks for another informative response.

I actually don't have trouble keeping track of my assests from the capture applet from MyDVD - it allows you to put the captured mpgs to where ever. I just can't do much else but set the quality to 'low', 'med', 'hi'.

Based on your last post - I grabbed Womble's mpeg2vcr and did a quick test with a 2gb mpg from the avc2210. I did a simple left and right trim, and saved the file. I did change from CBR 6mbit/s to vbr 6mbit/sec avg, after re-encoding - file seemd OK. Mpeg2VCR may become part of the solution for me (wonder how it compares to stuff like tsunami mpeg editor and other products in this space...).

On another note, while researching DVD authoring tools (My list includes Tsunami DVDAuthor, DVDLab, & Adobe Premier Elements - others worthy of testing?), I noticed that EditStudio 5 suggests it can do DV & 'analog' captures - I took this to mean WDM captures - that's when occured to me that any capture prog that would work hardware based encoders/capture devices - better know how to deal with the stream coming from the device - just like you said. Nope, EditStudio 5 can't do it either - but it does seem like a good mpeg editor - I am doing the same test I did with MPEG2VCR....)

So more with the questions:

Q1) So do the 'older' BT8x8 cap. cards, that have WDM drivers, basically just spew out AVI, uncompressed/unencoded I presume, and the WDM capture app would just uses one of variety of codecs for compression/encoding or not. Is this basically on the right track?

Q2) Or was the BT8x8 stuff really just another hardware encoder that spit out encoded AVI of some flavor that most anything can handle? (What about the newer connexant chips?)

Q2) If I was more correct on Q1 than Q2 - then what is difference between DV steam and an uncoded/uncompressed AVI stream (from such devices)? I don't really mean the organization of bits & bytes. I am more interested in quality and what is lost or not lost - stuff like that. If I am way off on this...well I am totaly noob on the DV stuff and slightly dangerous with analog capture stuff...be gentle....

Q4) Why capture with a hardware encoder at all? I understand speed, price considerations and ease of use, and for a lot of users they are fine. But I guess lots of enthusiats or budding enthusiats/prosumers like myself become limted quickly (i.e. if the encoded capture wasn't so good - there is little I can do in software to make this better). Except some situations (ok firmware updates and the like), hardware isnt' very upgradeable - but software almost always is. Why wouldn't I want raw video captures and allow me to encode with the most suitable encoder for task at hand?

Thanks for the comments about Pryro and Cannopus products AtoDV products. Any other enthusiat's AtoDV products to keep my eyes on?

 

Hi, The Thing with Mpeg2VCR is that is you use it Correctly it doesn"t encode your Files it just Cuts it and rewrites the Header so the Time code is Correct and spits it out without Touching the Video at all so you should look the Same Quality as the File you started with, also when saveing a file in Womble it should only take a few Minutes, if it takes Longer then it is Re-encodeing for some reason which it shouldn"t do if you don"t touch any of the Settings....

Most Analogue Capture Cards like the BT878 and even the newer 10 Bit Connexant Cards all rely on Software and Codecs to compress the Video to the Desired Format which generally doesn"t produce as Good of Quality as Good Hardware Capture devices especially ones that also have Hardware Noise and Image Filters....Why?? I don"t really Know the Dynamics of it but when you Look the the Most expensive Professinal capture devices they all use a hardware Compression sceme of some Sort....

Most High Quality DV Converters use 24 bit Video decoders which produce Much better quality than the decoders used in Consumer Capture devices but these Devices are also more expensive because you are paying for Higher quality Components.....

If you want the Most Flexability with formats then getting an Analogue digital Converter like a Canopus device is Probably best becayse the format is easy to edit and you can easilly encode it to any other Format without too much quality Loss and the DV AVI format is the most widely supported Editing Format....

Cheers

 

Yeah - I did the CBR to VBR to force mpeg2vcr to force the re-encode on purpose. I wanted to get an idea of how it encodes. I am with you, generally, it is desireable to not re-encode.


So after much deliberation & research, this is the direction I am heading:

1) Find/purchase a good video editor that will import common encoded formats with particular emphasis on importing of mpeg and saving/exporting/encoding out to mpeg.

2) Find/purchase a good DVD Author program that doesn't do any re-encoding of the clips - just the authoring to ISO or folder. (Already got several burning apps)

3) Continue to use my AVC-2210 for a bit while I nailing down 1 & 2.

4) After the dust settles a bit, begin the search for new capture device again - leaning heavily towards AtoDV boxes such as a canapus 110.

If I find that doing my DVD prep and authoring with good software tools is actually OK with the AVC-2210 mpges I have - then I may consider my self 'done'. Or maybe I'd go for a higher end consumer DVR style tuner/capture card - less so for the capture abilities - which should be equal or surpass my AVC-2210 - but more for the added features such as the TV tunner and DVR software and features.

Thanks for input and I am always open to more comments on this stuff.

 

Well if you are Looking for a Good DVD authoring Program that Doesn"t re-encode and Have awesome Menu features and supports all the advanced DVD authoring Features Like Subtitles and Multiple audio Tracks and Motion menu"s then Maybe check out "MediaChance DVDLab Pro" as it it what I use and it is One of the best I have tried....

Cheers

 

Yep DVDLab is on my short list and begun testing it a bit. That and Tsunami DVDAuthor

FWIW WinDVR 3 didn't work with my AVC-2210 - still on the look out for a solution for that - but for time being - stuck with using the silly MyDVD applet.

As always, I welcome any aditional input.

 

Well I know that "Intervideo WinDVD Creator" works with some Hardware encoder cards but the Software Totally sucks so i couldn"t really recomend it....
Sorr I don"t Have Any More Suggestions...

Good Luck