The Official Graphics Card and PC gaming Thread

I just set the program to log the temperature to a file so I can go back after the crash and see if there's any correlation. For short periods of time I usually use everest since you can log pretty much everything.

 

That's useful. I thought to do that with speedfan, but its not capable of monitoring NB temps
I'll look for real time temperature monitors tonight. I'd really prefer a real time posting on the screen. I'm surprised Fraps haven't done this yet :/

 

If you have a separate monitor anywhere in the house that would work, at least long enough to find out the issue.

 

Logging to a file sounds good - I was doing just some very short term logging tonight just comparing hd upscale - but that everest might work for you.

But on the analog vga to digital hdmi, I think you're talking about a $300 converter. Going the other direction, from digital to vga analog, which we do all the time when a graphics card comes only with dvi ports, of course it's just a $2 piece of hardware that shorts some connection and tells the graphics card to shove analog out the port, not digital. But when I looked it up about a year ago, to find why I couldn't get a cheap connection to do the opposite, like you're asking now, I encountered a whole different ball of wax, and the solutions involved active components that are expensive.

On another note, Kevin, since you're really into HTPC, I want to ask you what software you think I should get for dvd upscaling.

I was fooling around with the phenom today, the 9750 - wondering why Divx Media Player Plus won't play dvds. The divx player is wonderful about upscaling a video to HD - we have an avi called Earth that displays so beautifully on the 1920x1080 47" Toshiba, that when you're running it on the Divx player, you almost think it's HD.

Anyway, I did a lot of reading today, and two players were mentioned the most, Arc Soft, and Power DVD 10 with 3d imaging. There was a lot of talk about fddshow - which I guess is for the more sophisticated guys like you. Arc Soft was originally just for nvidia cuda, and not for Ati stream processing, but they said that they have added support for ati cards. However, on the p4 with the 3850, and on the phenom with the 3650, arcsoft downloaded an activision control that said that their product, called HDSim, high def similation, would not run on either computer. Weird! (I know the hd3850 is about twice as powerful as the hd3650, but I have read all over the net that the 3650 is quite a capable dxva card.)

So that made me suspicious that maybe power dvd was lying when they said they supported ati cards. But they let you download the 120MB $50 power dvd 10 for free, for a 30 day trial.

To my eyes and other's eyes, the picture is much better than, for example, vlc player, which is playing the western DVD, Broken Trail, just fine. (Great DVD by the way if you haven't watched it.)

I used gpu-z to log about 60 seconds of gpu load, and then later I logged 30 seconds of cpu load using task manager.

The first surprise was that the gpu load of vlc player was nearly twice the gpu load of power dvd, maybe 20% or so - holding pretty steady, versus maybe 10-14% for power dvd, jumping up and down. Here's the gpu load of VLC:



And here's the gpu load of Power DVD player:



And here's the comparison with both graphs magnified about 8 times:



That was wayyy counter-intuitive to me, because I knew power dvd was doing a lot of processing - you could definitely see a better quality in the upscaling it was doing.

And it wasn't my imagination. A guy named Thomas walked in when the vlc player was running, and then saw me crank up the same part of the DVD with power dvd, and blurted out loud, "That is a great picture."

I thanked him for commenting and I told him I was trying to compare the current player, Power DVD, to a player that likely wasn't doing much if any upscaling. Tommy said "Was that what was just playing when I first walked in?"

I said, "Yes, I'll show you the difference." He said, "You don't need to show me - I have an eye for that and I noticed the difference right away." And then I remembered - he used to install high end home theater systems. He said that he could easily see that the picture quality was far superior with the power dvd player.

Then I showed him the results of the gpu-z logging, where I had saved both sets of graphs in a rich text file. I told him I couldn't understand why the player with hardly any upscaling, was loading the gpu twice as much as the better quality player.

I said, "I'm going to take a look now at the cpu loading." Tom isn't too computer savvy. I showed him the task manager.

I said, "I'm gonna widen this thing, which is going to give me about 30 seconds of logging, and then I will place the graphs for safe keeping in this text file with the gpu charts. Maybe the cpu logging will explain how Power DVD is getting all the work done to upscale that DVD to HD."

Tom said he had other things to do, but he'd be back to see the results. After 30 seconds here is what VLC player loads the quad core phenom 9750:



Then I ran Power DVD, roughly the same scene:



Well, that tells the whole story right there!! (The keyboard sits in a dark cabinet - you see some spikes and a delay as I turn off the player and try to correctly hit the Alt PrintScreen keys.)

Jeeez Loueeeeez! VLC loads only one core at about 40%. The other three cores are idle. Power DVD on the other hand loads all four cores, about 30% each core. So power dvd is using at least three times more cpu processing power, balanced quite evenly over all four cores, and doesn't need to load the 3650 much at all.

Anyway, I found that interesting for some reason.

So, Kevin, what player should I really get? Do you like the Power DVD player? It has a little 3d button on the bottom, and when I pressed it the image turned sort of black and white on the screen, which tells me that if I had a pair of 3d glasses, I might have seen something interesting. We saw Avatar in 3D - where did I put those colored glasses, lol?

Rich

 

I really like Media Player Classic with the K-Lite codec pack installed. The upscaling is beautiful and you DON'T HAVE TO PAY. Of course VLC's image quality sucks, I could've told you that. There is no comparison between VLC and a proper media player.

FFDshow is the media engine which media players like Windows Media Player, Media Player Classic, Power DVD and many others use. It is not, like you guessed, a media player on its own. Usually, when you install codecs or play with video color settings on the graphics control panel, the effects are meant to be applied to FFDshow. So when you see something mentioning FFDshow, it is simply referencing the engine, not a specific codec or media player.

VLC is very useful for files that no other media player will play. Beyond that it is entirely useless due to the aforementioned image quality and several compatibility issues with many types of features. The inability to properly utilize dual-audio MKVs is one that stuck out in my mind. VLC is an entire video engine on its own though. It is completely isolated from FFDshow and like media engines, and as such will not be affected by video enhancements or codecs. It simply plays the raw file. This of course also means it does no true upscaling.


And for the record paying for a media player is for chumps. The most powerful, flexible, compatible media player that exists is absolutely free. Try installing Media Player Classic with the K-Lite codec pack then go in MPCs options and enable DXVA. I believe to do this it's View -> Options -> Playback -> Output. Set everything to VMR9(Renderless) or DirectX 9 then set it to "Use texture surfaces and render video in 3D." This should fully enable DXVA.

Also keep in mind that using AA with DXVA enabled causes un-necessary strain on the GPU with no visual effect at all. If you are going to use DXVA disable AA in the graphics control panel. This applies to all DXVA capable media players except VLC.

 

I haven't used Power dvd in quite some time. And when I started playing BD discs, a lot of my searching seemed to point to Arcsoft TMT. I tried it, and loved it. Dvds never look like HD on my screen. But I am only 2 feet from it. I'm also highly critical about how dvds look. I've become spoiled to true full HD Even 720 is much better than dvd. In fact, I really gotta look to tell the difference between 720 and 1080 on my screen.

Arcsoft TMT rarely crashes. It has happened, but I think power dvd caused me more trouble in the past. That was some time ago though. Perhaps I'll try them again

I've never seen a real good upscale. The blu ray/dvd upscaler in the living room supposedly upscales. I don't see it. Looks like a dvd to me

Using a second monitor is too much trouble...

 

DVI-D and HDMI work in the sameway signaling wise. hence there are DVI-D to HDMI adapters. VGA and DVI-A do not work in the sameway. DVI-A's wiring is the same or close to DVI-D's but the topology is different.

so to get VGA to HDMI you need a Converter Box which are expensive, you'll also loose HDCP and other HDMI enhancements. not the way to go for sure.

 

Are you 100% sure on the expensive converter box? I've been looking at an alternative means which would only cost me a fraction of the cost May not be as crisp as HD, but it would still blow DVD out of the water

 

D-Sub and VGA are one and the same. VGA does not use anything but the same connector.
VGA is I would argue the slang term, since VGA officially refers to a resolution of 640x480 only.
Second monitors are mega handy for this sort of thing.
Rich has it pretty much spot on with the video connectors, digital to analog is a bit false, as graphics cards can output analog natively anyway, just through a digital port like DVI. Analog connectivity only however, needs a digital interpreter to become a digital signal, which is expensive.

I have used, but dislike, FFDShow. It's now included as standard with Media Player Classic HC, annoying, as it has several flaws.
I typically prefer CoreAVC, but it is not as compatible (for example, no native FLV support)
GPU decoding is miles more efficient than CPU decoding, but it obviously turns out that whichever program is using the GPU decoding is using a naff codec to do it.

 

I realize that VGA and D-sub are the same. But HD-15 and D-sub are not the same apparently. You cannot hook an HD-15 connector to standard VGA, and expect it to work. I have an HD-15 to HDMI adapting cable, that will not relay a video signal, from a D-sub port. Because it's an analog signal? Can the port itself be taught to send Digital?

I have in my possession an 11 pin Dvi male to VGA. Came with my Asus 8600Gt. Which would connect to the following DVI Female to HDMI.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812270288
Would that not work? I wonder if I'm missing something. :S

I'm sorry. I'm trying to understand, but clearly this is eluding me...

My brothers last HDTV, was a Dynex. It would accept standard VGA analog signals. I miss that tv LOL! If he still had it, I wouldn't have to worry about the damn GF210. I would have never bought it! The signal was only slightly fuzzy. They thought it looked fine. I however am critical

 

they have a DVI to HDMI adapter. if you only have a VGA connector then a converter box is the only way.

whatever your hooking the HDMI up to, is going to expect the signal be digital. VGA is analogue only(I've never seen a VGA connector with digital doesn't mean they dont exist)

 

I'll probably never know for sure then. I still plan to use the GF210. That way I don't have to spend any more money. Though that DVI to HDMI converter could still be handy in the future. So perhaps I will give it a shot.

Not all devices expect digital. At least logically speaking. A graphics card will support either or. I've had to adapt DVI to vga with my said adapter. In fact I still use one for my secondary PC.

 

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/1gb-xfx-hd-6850-775m-ddr5-dp-hdmi-dual-dvi-pci-e-graphics-card

http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/1gb-xfx-hd-radeon-hd-6870-ddr5-pci-e-21-graphics-card

Cheaper than I was expecting.

 

Same here. Almost gives me hope the higher performance cards won't be ludicrously priced.

 

Will this also mean a price drop for the HD5000 series? Or are the 6800s just cheaper or what? Too lazy to google I know XD

 

Yeah, I'm with Red. Nice prices, but those are less powerful than a 5870, right? So where do you think the 45%-more-powerful 6970 will come in at?

Haha. Okay, sounds good Jeff. I captured your whole post to my paperport folder on upscaling.

Question: when you say Media Player Classic - do you mean Media Player Classic - Home Cinema? I am sure you do. I ask, because I DO have that one installed on the phenom, it came up in a search of dxva about six months ago, after somebody said in a newegg review that the 3650, which is in the HP phenom rig, was a good dxva card.

I downloaded the 64 bit version of MPC-HC for Vista. But as you can see, I kind of forgot about that player.

However, I had been very impressed with it when I was testing it. I have a 1080p full HD trailer of Sherlock Holmes which was challenging the other players. It was stuttering on mpcstar, which was my former favorite, and also on VLC, and also on Gom player.

But MPC-HC played it flawlessly. So I ran a gpu-z test on it versus mpcstar.



I left gpu-z running and turned off one player and started the other at about the same section of the trailer. You can clearly see more consistent dxva going on with MPC-HC, and you don't see those empty spots like on the left side, where mpcstar is stuttering.

But somehow I migrated over to using DivX Plus (which I paid $20 for after the free trial ran out, lol) because of how beautifully it upscaled the Earth avi.

The DivX Plus player may have even out-performed MPC-HC at least on how it upscaled that one avi - I think I tested the avi with every player I had, including WMP, Mpcstar, VLC, GOM, etc. And then I forgot about MPC-HC.

But if I have the right player, I'll google that codec pack you talked about, and I'll set up the HD upscaling, and then compare it to Power DVD 10 before the trial runs out. Then I'll save $50! That will buy me BC2. Thanks Jeff!

I was looking really closely at ArcSoft. I liked what they said about HDSim, and I watched the YouTube video showing the carousel in split image, regular DVD, and HDSim upscaled DVD. So I was disappointed when their activision control checked out my equipment and said it wouldn't run on the 3650.

And I do know what you mean about being spoiled by real HD, Kevin - my brother doesn't see the difference that fast, but I do, and Tommy saw a clear visual difference yesterday - in the upscaled HD. No - it wasn't as good as 720 would have been - but he and I could see a sharpness and a color quality that the non-upscaled DVD was not exhibiting.

Anyway, now that Jeff has clued me in that MPC-HC will play DVDs, I'll see how that same Broken Trail DVD plays on it. I already know MPC-HC makes good use of the 3650 dxva, at least on an avi, so I'll see how it works on a DVD, and how it looks, so hopefully I can save my $50.

I was thinking of maybe eventually capturing some screen shots of the DVD with VLC, WMP, MPC-HC, and Power DVD 10, for the forum. But by the time I shrink them to 700 pixels wide, they might not show the real quality difference. I can capture them at full 1920x1080. How would I link them to the original photobucket full jpg, or maybe full bmp? Would that be one of the other 4 linking options that photobucket gives you - I usually use the 2nd "direct link" to bring the pictures into the forum post. Does anybody know - if not I'll just try to play with it.

Your male dvi connector (male because you can see the pins) which came with your graphics card, terminates in a female vga on the other end. I am right now holding the same connector in my hand. The purpose of it is to plug it into the male dvi connector on a graphics card, when your monitor is analog and your cable is male vga. it shorts a connection in the card, and the card forgets about sending a digital signal, and instead sends an analog signal out the pc dvi connector, through the male dvi end of the connector, to the female vga end. In this way, the graphics card gives you a female vga connection, for people who don't have digital monitors.

You mentioned that you are using one of them on one of your other computers, for that very purpose, right?

This helps me keep things straight: Just remember, monitor cables are male, on both ends in fact, and pc graphics card ports are female.

So now, look at your htpc vga connector - it's female, right? It goes without saying that you won't be able to take that little connector you are holding and plug it into your htpc - female to female. So I don't really see how you were planning to connect that dvi-to-hdmi newegg connector you linked us to, to the DVI to VGA connector you have, and then plug the combination of the two connectors to the back of your HTPC. Maybe I'm not understanding it correctly.

I agree, it can be quite confusing and tricky.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Finally, on this discussion of upscaling, I take note that Sam considers the codec that Power DVD 10 uses as naff, since it obviously does a poor job of utilizing the graphics power of the 3650. But I guess I don't care - the phenom has the 4 cores available. However, it's probably using more electricity, and that's not good.

I also note that Sam doesn't like ffdshow, essential to Jeff's favorite player, MPC-HC. Why not, Sam?

I can't say that we really watch that many DVDs, but being spoiled by HD quality, just like Kevin, and at this time actually not even owning a blue ray player, my feeling is that if I play a DVD, I would like to simulate HD if I possibly can. From yesterday's test, I think it DOES look better - sharper and more vivid - more alive if you will. A little closer to HD.

Kevin, you obviously didn't get ArcSoft for free. ArcSoft don't play no freebies, am I right, Kevin?

Since ArcSoft is telling me flat out, "Sorry bud we won't run on your 3650", then I'll toss a loaded question at you, Sam, given that you have some misgivings about ffdshow which is built into MPC-HC. In your opinion, subject of course to my eye, if Power DVD 10 outperforms every other player I get my hands on for DVD HD upscaling - and I spend $50 on it after the trial is over, am I a chump?

Hahahaha. Sorry Jeff, I had to throw that in.

My brother would not have agreed to the $20 that I spent on the DivX player, and he will sure not agree to $50 on anything like Power DVD, but my brother can't see the quality difference between HD and regular TV unless you really force him to look really hard. But in addition to the visual quality, another thing I liked at the time about the DivX player, was the simulated surround sound, which helped the stereo Toshiba tv speakers really come alive. I didn't see the same effect coming as well from the other players, nor from the phenom on-board 7.1 realtek sound, in my opinion.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, lol.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

And that reminds me - ever since I was struck by the beauty of the graphics on my 30" dell, running the 8800GTX, beauty that I don't recall ever seeing quite this stunning before, I have done a lot of reading about adjusting monitor color and gamma. DXR's link to the color charts has come up again and again - the problem I have is that Dell gives me no ability to adjust gamma or contrast or color - no controls at all - it has to be done at the driver level.

And I have read quite a few newegg reviews, in particular, one guy was saying how much he missed the monitor gamma and color correction wizard feature of his past nvidia cards.

So in some future post, I am going to come back to that issue, since, as much as I don't like those guys, for all the unscrupulous marketing things they do, I have to say that nvidia has done me the favor of opening my eyes to the importance of monitor color and gamma correction.

In particular - I have it noted in my paperport folders - there is a $20 utility from Europe that works with Ati cards, and lets you make corrections at the driver level, and then lets you create a profile and then save those corrections so that they aren't changed when Catalyst Control Center boots up.

But more about that in the distant future - for now everything is GORGEOUS!!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sam I apologize. I don't know how it happened, but I completely missed your whole post 6833 a couple days ago, with that great explanation of Dota. Thanks for taking the time - I'm reading it in depth right now.

Hahahaha!

Wow, that was a great job of laying out that game, and some of the most popular maps.

That's why I never got started on TF2 - I can see there is a good bit of a learning curve there.

For example, I jumped on Day of Defeat last month for a few hours when I got the Q9450 machine, having been off of it for about a year. I remember when originally I didn't have any idea how the game was played, and I started playing it maybe 5 or 6 years ago in my Counter Strike days before the Source version came out. They had some great old maps like the Normandy landing, where I lay prone in the water, my BAR doing a number on some of the Germans manning the pillboxes. In pre-source DoD, biped legs come out to steady the BAR, which is how the gun was really designed to work in the war - it was never really meant to be used from the hip. One guy mic'd out - "Good job Rick, I think you took that German's head off." I mic'd back "I wasn't sure I was hitting anybody up there."

Most of the DoD rounds are capture the flag - some of them are blow things up with dynamite: tanks, artillery, half-tracks. I was pretty rusty, last month, after a year off, but I had played enough of it - probably several hundred hours total - before, to get back into the swing of it fairly fast.

But one of the great things about the game is the use of the mic, and at first I forgot how to make the mic work, and then I found my mic key and realized that unlike L4D, you don't have an open mic, you have to hit the key to talk. So I had to get used to that, but soon I started getting organized, with team advice like "Hey guys, let's take the 2 point bridge" or "Hey they're trying to take the church - somebody get that guy."

I think there were actually too many people playing last month - the game got a little frantic and grenades were flying everywhere - the maps are pretty small.

I think I like the gameplay of COD4 better, except for a couple maps which I hate, like that one with the big storage containers. From what I have found, there is virtually NO mic action at all in COD4 MP - maybe Shaff on xfire has found that the guys DO use the mic.

But that is what is so great about L4D - lots of mic action - including open mic - how great is that! And great gameplay, and great graphics, and good gun handling.

So getting back to your description of TF2, I am realizing that my TF2 learning curve would be about a 100 hours, I'm very sure, at a minimum - 100 hours of noob time. (You saw me at my noobiest - not knowing whether I was coming or going - when I first got on Left 4 Dead, lol.)

Still, seeing as how Miles and Ariel and Moby were the TF2 team at Valve, when Miles first went to Seattle about 7 years ago, I should include that game in my mix during my once a month gaming weekend, which starts officially Halloween weekend (Fri, Sat and Sunday) coming up in 8 days.

But not yet. I may get to it in a few months, but not until I get back into the swing of things with L4D, and COD4, at full 2560x1600 on this quad core rig. (Not to mention finishing World at War, and Far Cry 2, and Hells Highway, and maybe replaying single player COD4, and then starting World in Conflict, since it will probably play a lot better with high settings and gorgeous graphics on the new rig, and I never got around to selling it on ebay.)

Okay, reading on:

Hmmm. Change class whenever - sounds like Dod. But in TF2 doesn't that depend on if there is an opening in the class - they probably don't allow too many people to be snipers, for example, right?

Wow - right! You already blew me away with that description of Dota HoN.

I watched a guy named Kyle play WoW for maybe 10 hours total spread over several days about 5 years ago - it was interesting to see his weird character go into the village and trade some trinkets for something else. Leaving the village, one time when I was there, he was passing some dragon thing and I talked him into attacking it, which cost him a lot of health, lol. My brother yelled at me to leave him alone. He actually was not planning to do that.

Then I talked him into flying another dragon to a different part of the map. I even watched him try to get himself elected to something - but he wasn't really raising much support. I can see how people get sucked into the WoW world.

So right now, after what you've explained so far, all I can think of is what Miles, who only tried playing it once, mentioned to me last week, "The game seems very complicated."

Okay then, here's a question for you. With 300 hours under your belt, are you fully past the noob stage?

How many hours did it take for you to get comfortable and really know what you were doing? I'm not asking if you are an expert with every hero - well, maybe you ARE by now - but at least are you pretty good with a couple dozen of them?

Rich

 

Wow Rich longest post ever made I think?

Appreciate you actually giving MPC a try. I've been using it for years now and I've never had a single problem with anything.

 

Jeff: It will highly surprise me if AMD don't just EOL the HD5800 series with pretty much immediate effect. I'm surprised they haven't done so already, the 4870X2 was EOL'ed a full three months before the HD5870 even came out.
Perhaps they will leave it until the HD6900s come out but frankly that's a bit silly, as if the prices don't suddenly get slammed, you're basically buying a more efficient form of the 5870 in the 6870, which is 90% of the performance, for not even 70% of the price.
I was expecting the HD6850/6870 to be £160/£220, but the prices seem to have come in around 80-85% of that.
If we assume (big assumption tbh) that the same holds true for the expected prices of the 6950 (£320/£370) then we could be looking at £270 for the HD6950 and £310 for the HD6970 - or more specifically, what the 5870 costs now, and what the 5870 cost at release.


FFDShow is not essential with MPC-HC, at least I don't think it is, but it has a few glaring issues. Firstly FFDShow cannot play most types of WMV (some versions won't play at all and others have massive amounts of green corruption) and secondly, it has playback quality issues with MP4s a lot of the time as well.
Simulated surround sound can be done with a decent set of speakers really, software doing it that isn't driver-side can be a bit problematic (i.e. latent)

I don't really know what you mean about nvidia having colour and gamma control, ATI have the exact same, also at driver level. It's not difficult to find, and it works exactly the same way.
The learning curve for TF2 is pretty minor really, you can pick up most of the gameplay mechanics in an hour.
The learning curve for DoTA, at least initially, is very steep. Not for the faint hearted, especially since to be brutally honest, the vast majority of its players are arrogant sods who will hurl abuse at you if you mess things up.
I'm not sure how you have set up continuous broadcast for Left 4 Dead, normally it is push to talk as well.
Call of Duty is, with the exception of pro teams in a tournament, effectively just a fragfest. It plays in a very arcadey style.
Bad company 2 on the other hand is seemingly a lot more serious, and the squad system does help there considerably.

Unless restricted, anybody can be any class in TF2. In most servers there aren't limits, where there are it's typically 'highlander' restrictions (There can only be one!) so one of each class only.
Though it might seem like it, DoTA is very different to WoW. It shares some of the same core gameplay aspects, but that's about it.
Typically I play a small number of heroes of the 60 odd available in HoN, I would say around 10 regularly. I'd say I'm 'adequate' with them, but certainly no pro. There is a high skill ceiling in DoTA and HoN, so genuinely talented players really make a difference.

Edit: nah jeff, that's moderate for rich

 

Here is a picture of a female dvi port, with purple highlights (Yes I have a thing for purple) indicating the pins on my Dvi Male.

It is my belief that connecting my Dvi male/to vga adapter to a compatible Dvi to Hdmi adapter, that I would be relaying a Vga analog signal through the Hdmi port. If you've proved this theory wrong, it went over my head :S
And by the way, why in the frick are though soo many different Dvi configurations. This is ridonculous LOL! You have some with the full array of pins, others with only eleven, and others still with 15. Why so many different configs? Dvi is a nightmare!

 

Not really, DVI is just multi-purpose. It can carry Analog signals or digital signals, and said digital signals can be low bandwidth or high-bandwidth.



As you see here, the four pins on the left are for analog, the left block and right block are for analog or low-bandwidth digital, and the centre block are only for high bandwidth digital (read: 2560x1600)