Video Card Thread (Mostly Gecube x1950xt)

Jeeezus Sam, I finally figured out what the hell you were talking about regarding fan rotation. In my little mind, somehow, I thought the whole thing spinned (good trick if you could pull it off - have the thing suspended without any mount??? - the way the're trying to make fusion work with ultra powerful magnets).

I read your post one last time to try to understand why I was so dense and couldn't figure out what you were saying,

then I thought to myself, wait a second, the fan has to be held together somehow - it can't all spin. I pulled a chair out and climbed up and grabbed a fan from the box on top of the cabinets - one of the 9800 cooler fans.

Oh, of course. Not so bloody hard after all! (excuse my french)

Looking at the damn thing, if you are looking at the non-rotating sticker, it's going to go clockwise, but if you're looking at the part that actually spins, it's going to go counter-clockwise (anti-clockwise). Duhh! Give me an award for high density - you can call me "deep" from now on, not for deep thinker, but for depleted uranium. hehe =).

(So how did you get so smart - are they all geniuses where you come from?)

By the way, I had another brain wave - I'll pull the stupid burner out and put it in my other computer which is a p4 2.8 with the 9800 board and has lots of open 5.25" bays. (That's the one that is going to take the x850xtpe when the Gecube comes in. I don't game on it any more but I had upgraded it because originally I thought I'd get a few buddies in the office here and we'd play condition zero against each other - I brought over Mo one time, and he was the noobiest gamer I ever saw, fumbling with the keyboard - besides my brother who was getting himself nauseous with the mouse spinning and looking up at the ceiling and down at the floor - so I gave up - there's only one totally addicted gamer that I know of and unfortunately it's me! :=)

So anyway Sam, if you would be so kind, take a look at the links about the Kama Bay, here and for the newegg posting and here and assuming Mo doesn't have a powerful 120mm lying around, what do you think I should replace the Scythe with, or do you like the specs and I should just try it with that fan for a while?

Thanks, Rich

 

Another set of instructions that seems hard to figure out:

Ok, let me give it a rip:

(It worked! Thanks!)


No, the box takes 3 of the 5.25" bays, and uses a 120mm fan. Yes I heard the same thing about Scythes being slow. If I am going to do this I want fast, right. Something like your 70 cfm monsters, right? So 120mm-wise, what would you recommend?


Thanks again, Rich

 

Lol the only justification for me being smart in that post is not being dense lol! Is that all there is to being smart these days?

The 1600rpm Scythe S-Flex puts out pretty much exactly 70CFM, and is quiet in doing so, by comparison. Suffice to say it's quieter than most CPU coolers, even the good ones. If you want more airflow, I recommend using those.

The silverstones I have are rated at 110CFM, and are they LOUD! Not when I run them at only 500 of their 2400 rpm though! Then they're silent, and are you surprised?

http://www.coolerguys.com/sff21.html
select the sff21f model

 

Sam,

Touche!

Well, you're right. I was kind of not having my thinking cap on. But, listen, I thought about it some more. I wasn't being completely daft.

What I mean is, I wasn't being completely ret**rded (politically incorrect thing to say) because from a mechanical engineering point of view, it's entirely possible that both middle round parts could be moving - the spindle could come all the way through the stationary part, and while you would be looking at a stationary outer frame, the middle round part could be rotating, just like the other side is. An engineer would design it this way, I believe, if you wanted to put additional bearings to prevent in and out motion of the fan blade, for much larger equipment I suppose. I'm not going to look this up, but turbine blades in a jet engine, I believe, are mounted this way. (Don't hold me to that.)

So I now have to defend myself, and I no longer believe I should be nicknamed "deep" anymore, (meaning depleted uranium, perhaps the densest metal known.)

Besides which, as an additional indication I am not completely bonkers, I think I have fully redeemed myself by what I came up with just now.

Listen to this: as I was driving back from San Juan Capistrano, I was asking myself, "How am I ever going to remember that rule of Sam's?" I said, there must be a mnemonic to tie it all down with.

Now before you read further, what would you have come up with?

Cat got your tongue? All right, I'll tell you my rather brilliant mnemonic (if I have to say so myself) to remember your rule - rotating side is moving counter clockwise. Here it is, brace yourself. (This is along the lines of "port" means "left" because they have the same number of letters, leaving starboard to mean right. "Righty-tighty" so turn left to loosen the nut, etc. etc.)

The part that is revolving - speaking of course of the center hub - is counting the revolutions, as it revolves at 1600 rpm or whatever. As it is counting the revolutions, it is turning counter clockwise! Brilliant, what! (Say yes.)

I followed your fan link, thank you very much. They seem to be out of stock on the 1600 rpm model, but they show the same price, $14.95, as on the lower rpm models. By the way, did you have a chance to pop over and look at that Kama Bay device? Seems rather clever. For only $20 it's not worth it for me to do it any other way.

Thanks again,
Rich

 

Perhaps, but I've yet to see a fan designed such, and you know how many fans I've owned, let alone looked at!

The kama bay seems a reasonable device. Not sure how much use there is for a high-level front intake, but when your case doesn't have a low level intake, suppose you'll have to make do. The other s-flex fans are very quiet indeed, but of course slower and put out less CFM, in the low 50s for the 1200, the mid 30s for the 800.
However, all is not lost
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835185006&Tpk=SFF21F

You're mnemonic is actually pretty useful. I've managed to learn that case off by heart so I don't need it, but it definitely would have come in handy earlier!

 

Well I guess I was speaking theoretically - you know, engine turbines. Haha - probably not a computer fan ever made in history like that - but jet engine turbine fans, now that's another story.

I'm glad you liked the mnemonic. I'll never be able to forget your rule, now, counter, like counting!

Thanks for the new link. So Sony has developed this miracle spindle that is absolutely noiseless - outstanding!

I guess most people would rather bring in from the bottom front, if the case allowed it. I think I'm going to be just about ready for the Gecube, pretty soon. I moved the burner to the other computer, testing it now, and since you are okay with the kama, I'll probably order it tonight. Then I'll cut out the restrictive round holes, buy a grill from kardson's link (for bling), the sunbeam "hose" is on the way, and then I'll wander over to Mo's "house" and see what loose fans he wants to "give" me to make up for the telescoping plastic part he binned - and besides, what is he going to do with them, anyway, they're just collecting dust. My science project is doing well. :=)

See you, Sam

 

It's not a noiseless spindle, far from it really, but it's quieter than most fans. You just have to beware that any fluid bearing fan should not be placed directly on a heat source. You can do it, but after a year or so, the fan starts to make more noise. Not something the average PC user cares about, but in the silencing world, fans get replaced regularly.

 

sammorris
Interesting, Sam - keep the fluid bearing fans away from heat sources. So that type of fan doesn't make a great heat sink fan - you can expect to start getting some noise after a year. My heat-free application up front is perfect then!

Waymon and Kardson
On another front, we haven't heard from Travis and Raymond for a while.

Is the BF2 Matchup still on?

Rich

 

Indeed, a silentPC enthusiast would use sleeve bearing case fans (usually nexus or papst) and use slow ball bearing fans or Fluid dynamic fans (Adda for the former, Scythe and Noctua for the latter). Note that 'silent' power supplies use sleeve bearing fans, such as my Thermaltake Toughpower with its 140mm Yate Loon. Power supplies that actually are quiet use ball bearing fans (such as the Corsair HX series - a 120mm Adda), don't believe marketing spiel! That magic 8dB fan that boots out airflow just doesn't exist I'm afraid.

Typical examples:

SilenX case fan advertised as 40CFM and 11dB. Actual performance was 35CFM and 26dB.
Noctua case fan advertised as 30CFM and 8dB. Actual performance was 30CFM and 20dB.
Thermaltake case fan advertised as 75CFM and 21dB. Actual performance was 70CFM and 38dB. (Thermaltake are worst for it)

 

Can we set up the BF2 showdown for next weekend?

Im pretty drugged up right now, had all 4 wisdom teeth ripped out of my mouth today.

The whole procedure seems so dan barbaric...

 

Ouch, glad you made it through alive! I had two teeth removed so I know what it's like. It's not so much the removal that's horrible, it's what all that anaesthetic does to your gums afterwards, or at least that's what I found.

 

sammorris
You're a good guy to know, Sam, when I get tired of all the noise! I ordered the Kama Bay yesterday.

Hey, here's a thought. I'm going to put in the black Kama Bay (not the newegg white one) and I'm going to pull the fan out, using the case basically as just a baffle across the 3-bay opening.

That's right. No fan at all, for a test!

Then, with the cpu HSF ducted to an opened-up side hole, and more powerful exhaust fans at the back, and a new one at position 3, the rectangular inlet, the PSU fan, and the blitztorm going at full blast, I'm going to see what type of draw I get through the front of the fan-less Kama Bay.
...............................
In order for those 4 exhaust fans to move air, the air has to come into the case from somewhere, and there are only two holes in, the side hole ducted to the cpu HSF, and the front 3-bay hole.

To put it another way, if I can feel lots of air exiting the back and lower back side of the case, I can reasonably assume that air is coming in through the Kama Bay, right?

It has always fascinated me that you can take two horses, and have them pull opposite each other, like when you draw and quarter a peasant (you would know more about this than I would, Sam.) :=) The fascinating part is that you don't really gain any extra pulling force than if you let one horse have the day off, and tie the other end of the rope to a tree. (In other words, instead of four horses quartering the dude, you only need two horses and two trees.) The fact that the peasant isn't moving (until something comes off - pardon my crude imagery) means that the forces are balanced. He is getting a one-horse force, balanced by another one-horse force. If you tie one end of the rope to a tree, it's the same thing. A one-horse force balanced by a one-horse force - the tree isn't going anywhere so the forces are balanced.

Back to my case. Exhaust air is blasting out the back of the case under the power of FOUR 70mm fans. To balance all that negative pressure inside the case, intake air is rushing in through the empty Kama Bay casing.

Everything makes sense so far, right?

So, now, let me add an intake fan to that equation. Here's my question: What if I already have so much air coming in that I don't need the fan? Is it possible, then, that the intake fan would just sit there and flutter, basically just trying to keep up with all the air that is trying to blow past it anyway. It's like pushing someone on a merry go round - if they fly past so fast that you try to push but can't really keep up, yes your arm and body goes in the same direction as they are going, but you didn't add anything to their enjoyment, other than the spectacle of watching you trip head over heels. =)

To put it another way, suppose I were to leave in the 800rpm 120mm scythe that comes with the Kama Bay. In its slow revolutions, is it conceivable that it could actually impede the progress of the air that wants to rush into the case, and create a blockage? If so, better to just remove it and see what's going on, right Sam?

To summarize, I think I should start out and begin by trying to see if I am getting good air movement with the empty Kama Bay. I have no flow-meters so it is going to be very subjective. I do have the ability to track two case temperatures through speedfan, so I could load up the system with 3dmark 6, letting it cycle 9 times, (oh, that won't work I can't run 3d mark and speed fan at the same time) - well I could use the 3d renderer of ATT non full-screen size like this:

...
And doing it that way, I can watch the case fan temps. Then I could put the fan back in the Kama Bay, and see what happens to my case fan temps. Then I could put a 1600 rpm fan in the Kama Bay, and see if that gives me even more flow out the back - in other words not only keeps up with the air that is already coming in the front, but gives it a big boost!

What do you think of all of this, Sam? Anybody else?

Regards,
Rich

 

Kardson
I have to echo Sam's sentiment, Travis. Four teeth. It's a wonder you're still with us! (My drawn and quarter analogy is probably what you feel like you've just been through.)

Raymond (waymon) are you up for the BF2 matchup in a week or two when Travis rejoins the living?

Hope the swelling comes down fast, Travis, and that it will all just be a fond distant memory very soon.

rich

 

Now thinking about it, it seems obvious why your case was warm. Not because it didn't have enough fans, but because there was nowhere for the air to come in. The kama bay should make a big difference.
Did you say four 70mm fans? All in that back vent? Then surely you can fit a 140mm fan, which would be a much better idea.

You're on the right lines with the 800rpm Scythe fan causing impedance, but I don't think there'll be 30CFM through those holes if it weren't there. Scythe aren't silly, if there was no need for it, they wouldn't put it there.

Why can't you run speedfan and 3dmark at the same time? I run speedfan all the time and have no problems caused by having it running.
I sometimes even alt-tab out of games, adjust my CPU fan speed, then go back into the game!

As for the 1600rpm scythe at the front, if the 800's not enough, the 1200 may do. A 1600rpm fan is managable in a PC, but when it's facing you directly, it'll same that much more obtrusive.

If you can use a 140mm fan for the back, how about this fan?
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=20771
Cheaper than most fans, sleeve bearing and produces significant airflow for insignificant noise.

 

Kardson
By the way, Travis, in all your pain, you probably didn't notice that congratulations are in order to you and to myself - we lost the "newbie" designation and moved forward into Junior Member status! =P
Rich

 

Congratulations!

Now get to Addict status....
Lol

 

Thank you, Sam!

Addict indeed! I better get my butt out there and sell some houses! Lol
Rich

 

sammorris
Ah hah, so that's the psu fan you were talking about - I like the name, Yate Loon!

Sam, the 4 70mm fans are in four different locations on the back. 1. One of them is built into the PSU. 2. Another one is in a small back case fan location (a slow 1200 rpm fan is there right now that I am going to replace with something that moves more air). 3. Another one, per Travis, is going over the rectangular hole at the lower back of my side case cover, and 4. the final one is the blitztorm blower - sorry not really a 70mm fan - it's a blower. So that's four fans in four different locations - no room for the Yate Loon I'm afraid.

You said the manufacturer wouldn't put a fan in the Kama Bay if there weren't a need for it. But, Sam, that's the reason for my post. The manufacturer had no way of knowing that Travis would redesign my cooling, and have me put that additional exhaust fan at position 3 - the rectangular hole.

...

So, in my opinion, we have to face the real possibility that a fan could become an obstacle instead of improving the flow.

The other thing - I of course can run speedfan, and ATT, with 3dmark6, but in the background, since 3dmark6 runs full screen. That was my only point. Yes, I could Alt Tab out of the 3dmark6 (would it let me bounce out and back in that way?) but I was thinking more of not having to do that.

...

As opposed to this picture, since I only want case temps, I could make the renderer large to load down the cpu and gpu, and leave a piece of the screen with those two temps.

Watcha think?
Rich

 

Ah right. They should all be 80mm fans, not 70 I would expect. The PSU fan certainly has an 80mm fan, I can see from the picture.
I'm sure you appreciate if I thought they were 70mm fans (that slot at the back is far more than 70mm wide), then you could fit four in there, two across, two down. That would have been a 140mm x 140mm square, so the D14SM-12 would have fit, but never mind.
I'm only assuming the back fan's an 80mm job too, which would explain why it pushes no air at 1200rpm. Even a 120mm fan is quiet at that speed!
I see what you're saying about not being able to check temperatures during.
To solve that problem I bought one of these:
http://www.pertelian.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=43&Itemid=48

Reads you speedfan's CPU temperature, shows you CPU and memory usage, or it can show you whether you have any emails (as long as your email is P.O.P.), how much network traffic is flowing, what song your listening to (itunes or WMP), whether there are any new updates to a forum, and goodness knows what else.

My case has a temperature probe system on it anyway, but it no longer works. (No matter, analogue probes aren't usually that good anyway).

 

wow, havent been here for a while. Anyways, sure the BF2 match is still uo, I'm dine to do it for whenever, just make it on a sunday/ after 1pm on saturday est time, and I'll be available.

Btw, what server should we join? I live in connectucut, so I dont really want to join a server with a ping over 100 (I have cable)