Video Card Thread (Mostly Gecube x1950xt)

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3183&p=4
Clock speed|....Bioshock|......Oblivion|.....Crysis
3.33GHz|........103.8..........49.0..........43.2
2.66GHz|........101.7..........48.3..........37.3
2.00GHz|........90.9...........47.3..........30.9

 

Taken using nvidia hardware. The CPU Ceiling with ATI drivers is lower, so that might explain the results me and Waymon got with Crysis using two 3870s.

 

http://www.guru3d.com/article/cpu-scaling-in-games-with-quad-core-processors/1

this article states diffferently

 

Certainly another plus point for me sticking with my current CPU. I'd be tempted to grab something like an E6750 off somewhere, but at the same voltage and heat output, what will I gain, 400mhz perhaps? Not really worth the investment or trouble. I'll stick it out for a bit longer and see what the best Quad is in early 2009 methinks. A graphics upgrade will come long before a CPU upgrade, unless it's forced upon me.

 

IMO E6 series is long dead with the E8 series.

 

At their current prices they are. But the fact remains that in 2008 the E8000 series at least is still the better chip to own for gaming, if little else.

 

Hey Sam and Dinc,

I'm glad you guys enjoyed the trailer. Yeah, I keep getting those two titles mixed up. Band of Brothers - the tv series. Brothers in Arms - the video game, with squad-based gameplay, essentially based on the tv series. I quite enjoyed Road to Hill 30 and Earned in Blood.

My PSU is Allied 500, Sam, only 20 amps on 12volt rail - WEAK!! My card will be the 3850 (not 4850) agp - I'm gambling that it doesn't pull any more amps than my present x850xtpe. The 3870 pulls 140 watts, so I'm hoping the 3850 is a bit under that, and I would assume I'll be okay.

MaccerM, of course you're right - lose the p4. But I DO have to say, Mike, that having customized the case with all that extra ventilation, which was kind of fun to do - the Sunbeam kit protecting the cpu from heat, the kama bay, I have a fondness for this dumb old p4. I'll max it out with an extra $200, use it for a while, then do a new build maybe next year when all you guys have worked the kinks out of the 4870s or whatever is coming by then. I think I'll forget about Dirt, but maybe try Grid. With over 13k 3dmarks Dirt online still drops you to the teens at times - what a demanding game!! So demanding that Sam took it off his machine. That tells me next year's new build better include a really powerful cpu.

Between you, Mike, and Sam, and shaffaaf - you guys are having quite an interesting discussion about cpus and where the performance bottleneck comes in. Anandtech says it's 1 + 1 = 2; they both matter a lot. And shaffaaf's anandtech article says fast core 2 duo is a better value than slower quad core. Like I say, lots of stuff to think about cpu-wise for the new build.

-Rich

 

i just recently caem from a P4 at 3GHz to my 1.6Ghz C2D, and that was a BIG improvement, no longer did just runnign azureus get me to about 85% usage.

then i clocked to 3.2GHz and the difference is astounding.


esp in games, from P4 to C2d, i was gaming at 1280x1024 and under and i got a sustantial increace in frames.

 

Exactly Shaf, even with a super-budget core2 the difference over a p4 is huge! That's why I don't see why hvd wants to spend $200 on obselete rubbish when he could take that cash, save a tiny bit more and start on a skt 775 system.
Get on Ebay! Just make sure you spend the majority of cash on a fairly new top-end DDR2 motherboard that will take 45nm Quads and let you do 500mhz+ fsb then just fill it with a cheap E21x0, cheap ddr2, and a cheap gfx card for the time being. The result will be a system that will easily outperform your 3.2 with a HD3850 in it, AND you won't have spent any extra cash on obselete equipment, you can sell your p4 board/chip/ram to cover the extra you spend initially, and also it means that instead of forking out for a whole new build in one go further down the line, you can upgrade a component at a time when you have the cash/when a new one comes out. - And you will be able to make use of all your cooling features in your current case to o/c the back out of whatever you have in there!
Am I making any sense?

 

I used to use an Athlon XP 3000+ with my old PC, not dissimilar in performance to a 3Ghz P4. I only moved then to an X2 4200+ and the performance difference was outrageously huge. My current CPU, an E4300 overclocked to 3.15Ghz, is 80% faster still. Now consider that you can buy CPUs even slightly faster than mine off the shelf before they're overclocked (E8400). Dual cores are pretty darn quick. But then again, Quad cores like the Q9450 are not slouches, not at all. You can stil overclock one of the latter to be significantly faster than my CPU in a single/dual core config, and then you can have that performance with four cores too!
Shaff: Lmao, Azureus was a bit of a CPU hog a while back, not sure if it still is, I've been using utorrent for years now.
Maccer/Harvrd: The irony is that you could spend $200 on a new CPU, motherboard, RAM and graphics card and the sum of the parts would bag him a similar 3dmark to what you get already, only having spent two hundred dollars on the whole lot!
Unless there's a financial reason for waiting, spending $200 now for a relatively minor performance boost, you may as well spend a fair bit more now and upgrade the entire lot. $200 now means $200 less on your new updated system.

 

Yeah, pretty much, but he wouldn't even be spending very much more initially anyway. A E21x0 would be pence(cents!) off Ebay, (my dad's E2160 cost me £35 about 6mths ago and is easily good for over 3ghz), a vanilla 512mb 8600GT again would be really cheap - $75 on newegg for a new Zotac card so again cheaper on Ebay - (possibly get a 3850 for around the same). So about $100 absolute max so far. Ram, you could get some uber-cheap ddr2-667 probably less than $25 for 2gb and have headroom to get to 3ghz with a E2160/E4x00 at stock ram speeds. Then all you need is a mobo, and say you get $50-100 back on your old board/chip/ram/gfx - has to be worth at least $50 to someone on Ebay - then you have $100-150 to spend on a good solid mobo - (which I would be tempted to buy new).
You have to get in mind that a 1.8ghz C2D & 8600/3850 would be wiping the floor with a P4 & a 3850. When you change a number in the Bios and make it go at 3ghz it is going to be wiping its arse on the P4.
In my mind - having done this all myself a while ago - there is no justifiable reason to get a better AGP card over what I've just mentioned, other than it would be less short term effort required.

 

An E2160 is not $35 lol, they're still £35 even now... Though if they had dropped in price, I think AMD would be history in the desktop PC processor market.

You're spot on about the upgrade though, even a cheap one like that would be leagues ahead of the system he'd have after upping to a 3850AGP. The 3850 PCIe is what I'd go with of those two options though, it's easily double, if not near triple the speed of an 8600GT.

 

Look on Ebay.com and you will see about 8 E2160's all with a heatsink starting at $10. I bet my right leg you get one for $35, or less. Just having a quick scan it looks as though you'd be lucky to get a 3850 for less than $100. The reason I mentioned the 8600GT is partly because it is cheap like the budgie, and a second hand one should be get-able for less than $50. But also because unlike the 3850 it draws all it's power through the PCI-E slot, with no need for a 6-pin power connector. I seem to remember harv was not too confident about his psu so I thought the 8600 might be ideal as a step until he gets a new one, and by the time he does, he'd probably want a better card than a 3850 anyway.
Also, the core of the new build will need to be the motherboard, so as much cash would need to be saved for that as possible. Nahelm will be a new socket and DDR3 is too expensive to warrant buying for very little extra performance so I would go for an all singing all dancing DDR2 board, with 45mn Quad support for the future upgrades - X38/X48 if you were planning on single card/Ati X-Fire or a 680i+ for Nvidia.

 

In reply to the new Brothers In Arms game (I'm seeing live at E3 now):

GOOOD DAAAMNIT!
It's got a crosshair and cover-system in 3rd-person-view!

*majorly pissed off and annoyed*

 

Lol, you don't approve then?

 

Not of those particular things.

The whole gameplay itself doesn't seem much different from other games I'm sad to say...
I'll still have to see more and possibly play it, but I've seen the gameplay now.

 

C'mon Dinc, don't rain on my Brothers in Arms parade

You don't like crosshairs? Look I know you're probably one of those COD4 multiplayer hardcore guys who hates the crosshairs, but although I play those servers from time to time, I don't think that's especially real life.

When you are out there in real life, holding a rifle, you can point the thing, and you know more or less where you're pointing it. You see the news videos of soldiers in Iraq walking around with their weapons pointed forward - they aren't looking through the scope, but they are definitely pointing the rifle in line with their line of sight, in case somebody jumps out of a doorway. So to me having a cross hair in a video game is closer to real life than not having anything at all. Anyway, just a matter of opinion.

The 3rd person part of the game is what both prior games had, I'm betting, but tell me Dinc if I am wrong. They have a strategy mode where the action more or less stops and you get an overhead view of where all the bad guys and good guys are. They say that is similar to real battles where you normally have terrain maps. I don't know about that, but you can play the game and pretty much never use that third person mode.

Anyway, other than that, Dinc, how did the game look?

Wow, Mike and Sam, you guys are really pursuasive about not investing $200 in my current rig. From page 20 of this forum, here's my case.

...

I have enhanced the cooling with a kama bay inlet fan 120mm scythe, taking up the top front 3 5.25" dvd slots. I installed an outlet fan where the #3 is, boosted the back two outlet fans, added a sunbeam tube kit to draw in fresh air for the cpu (where the number 2 is).

I have a weak Allied 500 psu with only 20 amps on the 12 volt rail. Maybe I could keep that for a while.

So, with that rig, keeping the cooling, and keeping the psu for now:
I need

1. mobo, 2. Ram, 3 cpu, 4 gfx card

1. I change the mobo - spending $150? I think you said, Mike, buy the mobo new.

2. and 3. Then I go on ebay and buy a cpu for $50? I buy 2 gigs ram on ebay for $50?

4. Then for graphics card I pick up a 3850 pci-e for $150?

So I spend about $400 instead of $200? What numbers have I inflated? Maybe you guys are making sense. I think I can get $100 at least for my x850xtpe from somebody I know who has just a 9800 right now.

What should I buy new? Like I said, I think you said, Mike get a new mobo. So is cpu and ram okay to pick up used? If you already answered those questions, Mike and Sam, I'll study your posts more carefully. Instead of a 3850 pci-e, would I want to go with a 3870? (or just bite the bullet and spend the $300 on a 4850?)

I read shaf's post - you doubled your cpu clock from 1.6 to 3.2 ?? Are some of those things THAT overclockable - 100%!! Amazing!! From shaf's other post a while back, anandtech says the sweet spot is core 2 duo, do I need to worry about a mobo supporting quad core, or will anything that supports core 2 duo automatically also support quad core?

So are you guys still thinking this is the step I should take, keep my case, psu and cooling - or now that you see my case and cooling, are you having other thoughts?

-Rich (aka harv)

 

Without wishing to use an expression that's too harsh, I hope you see the funny side of this one:
"You can't polish a turd"
That P4 can only be so fast, and an AGP graphics card will never see any better potential, because when you upgrade your CPU you'll be on PCI express. Don't waste it.

The HD4850 is only $180, and is by far the better bet. Get that new, get an ebay CPU if you must, but buy a new motherboard, definitely by a new board. I'd also say get a new PSU, no ifs, no buts, you just can't risk all that new PC hardware getting destroyed.

Your case cooling is not ideal, but it should serve its purpose for these components, the only limitation you will have is being limited with your overclock.

 

Yes, you're wrong.

How can having a virtual crosshair be more like real life than none?
If you'd want to pretty much simulate it, you have to create the same view.
Do you see a floating crosshair in front of you in real life?
I don't think so.

And I know that you know where about you aim when holding a gun.
That's the whole point, that you estimate it and NOT pinpoint it with a virtual crosshair.
Which is the thing I hate about it, you CAN pinpoint every shot zoomed out when you have a crosshair in the HUD.
It's already bad enough you can estimate the aim with the frame of the monitor and just looking at the center.


And how dare you call me this hardcore COD4 player.
How can I be if I want realism? COD is run&gun.
I did play the Demo which I really like, also with the crosshair off.
And that's one of the first games I see I could turn it off.

The other one was Crysis, makes it more challenging too.
And the next game will be Far Cry 2.
I love those guys for making a game as realistic as possible.
Still there are some fake things, but it's the game that gets closest.
I also wish there wasn't this big fat ugly crosshair in Rainbow Six Vegas, that's the worst with accuracy.
While the game gets quite realistic, they added the frickin huge crosshair.
Just what the heck?...

 

Sam, Mike, Dinc, Shaf,

You guys are absolutely persuasive. "can't polish a turd" Ouch!

No I don't mind the analogy, Sam. I exactly see your point. You guys have me THIS CLOSE to persuaded. BUT ...... I know you're right - here's one last thought:

I have a steep learning curve to embrace before I really get anywhere close to where you guys are - I have never overclocked a cpu, and I know very little about timings and front side bus voltages. Using ATI tools was my first experience at controlling the fan and memory, just on the graphics card. Ventilating the computer was a fun and awesome experience and I learned a lot!

I sell houses. Mostly, I make phone calls and get listings. The market here in Southern California has tanked, and right now I'm calling Notice of Defaults (they are about to lose their houses) trying to talk them into short selling with me (we price it to sell and see if the banks will take a lot less than they are owed). I have done 3 as a test case, was successful at two, and made about $2,000 per house. Not that much, but the test showed me I can make some money if I do these in volume. The money from that will let me jump into a really nice computer next year - the all new build - new case, new everything - maybe water cooling. Overclocking. Probably crossfire. (Did you say the 4850s are only $185, Sam - I thought it was $300?)

If I had anywhere close to the knowledge you guys have - that would be one thing. But I look back and see all the time I put into just that simple ventilation exercise, which was fantastic. That was more hands on then I have gotten before. But it also was quite time consuming - like I say I have a steep learning curve. You guys are miles ahead.

So my point is - I have to put the time right now on making those phone calls. That is the fastest way I can put together the $1,000+ for a new build. Way faster than worrying about fixing up this current case.

So you're 100% correct. It's a waste of money for me to put the $200 into this p4. BUT - it of course takes only zero time to trade gfx cards and pop in the new 2 gigs of memory. Zero time.

So with zero time involved, putting $200 into this "turd" of a P4, (your're right - it's true) I am able to get to 4000 3dmarks, I can leave installed the existing psu, and I get shader 3.0. I will have a maxed out standalone gaming computer that is not too bad, (a faster turd with shader 3) and I can do that for about 1 hour of time investment. On my Wed gaming days I can add Airborne to my games, see if they have any kind of decent multi-player, smooth out my COD4 online a bit, and I'm okay for now. I can add brothers in arms with Dinc's favorite crosshairs in August, even if it turns out that they have jumped on the shader 3 bandwagon also.

Yes, I will have come to a dead end on this p4, and I will have in a sense thrown away the $200 - looking at it from the standpoint of what is out there now!

BUT I will have saved gobs of time in terms of putting off learning how to overclock, installing a new board and new ram, and new PSU. (Sam is adamant, with good reason, after his experience, that my PSU will have to be changed out.) I will have gained myself about 6-12 months of extra life out of my rig. Not from where you guys sit, but from where I sit. See what I mean? I'm always going to run about 2 years behind you guys in technical know-how, and probably the sophistication of my equipment. But the new build will be state of the art, because I'll get your advice and do it right.

Last year the only thing I did to my old case was to ventilate it properly. This year, instead of taking the high road and embracing the new core two duo 775 technology, I'm going to take the low road and invest - basically throw away - the $200 - and just buy myself a little time. You're right Mike - it's a pity. One day next year I will end up maybe giving this computer to somebody, or just keeping it as a spare, if somebody wants to come over and play a LAN game of condition zero against me.

It's going to be little nicer p4 - albeit still a turd. I'll save up the shiny polish for next year's $1000+ new build.
- Rich